Cyberpunk 2077 Crunch, Online Toxicity and Platform Responsibility | The Escapist Show

  • Publisert Måned siden

    The Escapist

    Runtime: 38:31

    Join our NOsection Membership program for Early Access to videos, badges, emojis, bonus content and more. ►► nosection.info/goal/qg5FCR7NrpvlBWMXdt-5Vgjoin
    This week on The Escapist Show, we discuss our time playing Crash 4, Spelunky 2 and Star Wars: Squadrons, the Cyberpunk 2077 crunch news, the online toxicity surrounding it and being responsible with your platform.
    Subscribe to Escapist Magazine! ►► bit.ly/Sub2Escapist
    Timestamps
    0:00 - 13:28 - Crash 4, Spelunky 2 and Squadrons discussion
    13:29 - 38:28 - Cyberpunk 2077 crunch, online toxicity and platform responsibility
    Want to see the next episode a week early? Check out www.escapistmagazine.com for the latest episodes of your favorite shows.
    ---

    ---

    Zero Punctuation Merch Store ►►teespring.com/stores/the-escapist-store
    Join us on Twitch ►► www.twitch.tv/escapistmagazine
    Like us on Facebook ►► EscapistMag
    Follow us on Twitter ►► EscapistMag

The Escapist
The Escapist

Do watch the video before commenting on this one. Big nuanced discussion this week about a lot of topics. Thanks.

Måned siden
JombilyWobbily
JombilyWobbily

@The Escapist Always looking forward to the docs, I do enjoy them. Good news, indeed.

Måned siden
The Escapist
The Escapist

@JombilyWobbily Haha, I wouldn't make a documentary about myself, talk about ego stroking lol. I've done a few interviews about it before, and we are in fact working on a few new docs for 2021 soon.

Måned siden
JombilyWobbily
JombilyWobbily

You should totally do a documentary on your experience in games journalism, I'd totally watch that and I know lots of people would (and in times of Covid, what else you can make a doc about?).

Måned siden
Nokturnal Lex
Nokturnal Lex

@Tech Freak I think it more has to do with Journalists wanting to be controversial by targeting the "good guy" company with negative news. Coming out with another story about EA being evil is like saying "Hey water is wet!" Though I'm sure also that companies like EA now force their developers to sign NDAs so it's hard for them to even get a witness' account.

Måned siden
Eve Daly
Eve Daly

Really enjoying this show now, ye have definately found a good rhythm and your conversations are like the kind I have with friends, so it's great to get into the nuance. From listening to your review, it seems like jack's taking a big picture view of crunch as a society and is ok with discourse as a means to a productive end for the industry, but nick is taking a micro view where he sees what it's like for developers in the trenches now and for each game while it's happening. Both views valid and both approaches are needed, but doing "exposé" on a studio who said they wouldn't isn't helping, as it's a larger industry problem. Twitter is only useful to add noise to problems, it's not activism without action people can take once they hear about it. Big companies look to be legal first, THEN ethical so it's a waste of oxygen to air "this is how it should be" points of view. Any action is a step in right direction and arguing over which is more effective is also a waste of energy: - hassle your government to enforce better labour law practice that includes contractors and outsourced labour in all industries - find a way to unionise game companies - make documentaries about crunch from Dev level and an exec level - petition companies to make a statement on how they are addressing crunch incrementally and media to keep on top of them with quarterly articles on progress - petition companies to pool together to fund research projects to look into the best project management approach for games dev, as most projects just funded by financial IT so may not be relevant to them! ....And that's just me thinking for a few minutes. An open list of actions people can take would be time better spent than snarking. As a problem solver for a living with extensive experience in 4 different industries, problems never have 1 just solution or 1 leader.

Måned siden
Blister Fingers
Blister Fingers

Crunch is barely a thing any more. It's nothing like it used to be with devs sleeping under their desks. It's a demon kept alive by the hack journos as their attempt at proper journalism now and again. Crunch is litterally just overtime near the end of a project, something that any company that handles projects deals with, even government. Not to mention the labor laws that the Shriers of the world always seem to neglect to mention. I think the problem is that these journos only work in writing, they have no concept of how most jobs actually work. Shitty companies and bosses that don't rehire or promote becuase you didn't pull a truck down the road with your Johnson are in no way unique to videogames.

2 dager siden
Scott Ripley
Scott Ripley

I honestly do think that some crunch is necessary. As a musician, specifically practicing for a bigger gig, putting more time in, is necessary to get the gig done and well. It sucks, but it's needed. If it that ALL THE TIME, then I think that's the problem.

Måned siden
Jimbot256
Jimbot256

The best discussion you can have with someone who doesn't want to join an union is to ask them why but you wouldn't compromise the vision of the union. All things being equal you probably could but executive power and authority is so strong and damn-near absolute, going in to negotiations with a compromised position means you and your constituents will get screwed. In the world we live in, with rampant propaganda against communism, socialism and (now) anarchism folks might have an uninformed or ignorant idea of what an union is. The idea of paying dues to this corrupt organization where the impotent leadership are getting fat off of your hard work is not beyond the possibility of capitalists to use and capitalize on. Their economic situation also might make them deathly afraid to rock the boat and rather keep their head down. So yeah, I agree that the nuance of online discussion is often lost but there's also the fact that global fascism is on the rise and ultra-conservatives hold the levers of power, ready to pull them to kill any kind of progressive policy, movement or group. I mean, just look at antifa - the anti-fascists. People believe them to be bad violent villains despite being... anti-f*cking-fascists. The opposite of fascists. This isn't by accident, it's by design. So I think dealing with absolutes against that kind of opposition is just a mechanism. Lots of Leftists are willing to engage with educating people and having conversations but most conservatives targeted by these powers are not and rather just waste their time. It's just engaging in bad faith so a leftist just wears themselves out trying to explain how collective bargaining is extremely awesome so when someone who genuinely wants to know, they become snarky and tired because they're worn out. Thought Slime did a great video on this.

Måned siden
AGRACUTA
AGRACUTA

First and foremost, crunch sucks. But i wanted to say As a game developer i had enough years ago with online communities. I completely left social media 2 years ago because when i should have been enjoying the fruits of hard labor and our game baby coming out instead i was targeted and harassed and got so upset i actually teared up during our goddamn launch party. Now i avoid game forums like the plague and barely talk about video games online anymore because of how toxic its all become. I remember growing up gaming was my life because it was a rare source of positivity. I would bond with others for my LOVE of games and gaming. Its all a bit sad because i love making games but gamers don’t love me. So i had to protect myself and just step away. Dont @ me i wont respond, but hearing this viewpoint was so refreshing that i wanted to temporarily poke my head out and say thank you for understanding nick and jack. I know most people wont care about this or just call me a whiner but wanted to say thanks anyway.

Måned siden
Jose Corchete
Jose Corchete

Literally every AAA game has had crunching. The difference this time is that the company sincerely tells the customers the truth, and the devs are gonna be paid their extra time. If you accept that you made a mistake and apologise, some people will jump on your neck, cause they centered their lifes around polemics some even making a living out of it. Vast majority of people will simply read the sincerity or not of the apology, and change only slightly their opinion. It's also worthy to note that is a big good difference, that speaks volumes of the suicide rates in korean game mobile companies, in example, that got to the point where the government had to legislate specifically for crunch in game dev companies, or about the leaked last months of development of Anthem due to EA management. Those are actual situations of crunch. The CDPR is by contrast an announcement of extra paid time.

Måned siden
Brett Hackett
Brett Hackett

CDPR Devs are a tight knit group from what I've heard in the past. coding, making the 3D art, animating, all of this can go smoothly or can hit snags again and again especially in RPGs where lots of different elements interact inside a sandbox. Imagine trying to manage all that while also on a deadline from your investors. This was Rockstars problem, and every triple AAA company now I think. I don't blame Devs for this, it's executive pressure. But I guess people get bored of blaming the money bad people because despite being true it's not an exciting story, so instead attack people on social media for next to nothing for clout. Journalists that do this have hit a new low, in my opinion.

Måned siden
Homer's Iliad
Homer's Iliad

I've had to seasonally crunch in every job I've ever had, it's part of work since the founding of civilization. Not a tale of exploitation.

Måned siden
Angry Reynholm
Angry Reynholm

Jason Schreier is the ambulance chaser of games journalism.

Måned siden
BaeBunni
BaeBunni

As someone that have had people "speak on my behalf " without ever talking to me before hand it definitely rubs me the wrong way hearing people only taking one side of a story and regretfully makes me trust others even if they are wrong and perpetuate a problem. Social media storm definitely makes me want to basically ignore the issues because of the personalities involved.

Måned siden
Graysen Wadsworth
Graysen Wadsworth

have you rented or bought driver?

Måned siden
J Z
J Z

As a Polish person I would like give a shout out to Jack for going the extra mile and pronouncing CD Projekt Red just as it is pronounced in Polish ("seh-deh pro-yekt red"). Spot on! ;-)

Måned siden
majik725
majik725

Good video. More discussion is good.

Måned siden
spooky shaggy
spooky shaggy

cyberpunk is like about a month away and I think that the crunch is a good idea right now but if they've been doing it for a year then there must be a good reason for it otherwise the developers would probably say something about it or do something.

Måned siden
Zen Popcorn
Zen Popcorn

36:50 Hey, I totally agree. I come here for real constructive discussions that break down what’s happening in the industry. All so often I feel most gaming journalism is just an article laying a few cards on the table and connecting the dots to fit their narrative. Here I feel like you actually try to think about all the perspectives and inspect various situations from all angles. Thank you for that.

Måned siden
Russ Glove
Russ Glove

"Promised to at least try to not have crunch for Cyberpunk" ... Well, they kept that promise. They tried. It's far from the worst crunch I've ever seen out there. Also, I feel you both approached the crunch topic in a very sensitive and sensible way here. Kudos.

Måned siden
Hock Seng
Hock Seng

>The best way to train muscles is to ****Break them**** lol that zoom in on Jack's face was funny

Måned siden
quincyking010
quincyking010

"Crunch" is not inherently evil or bad. Yes its been executed especially in video games. But it's not actually bad. It happens everywhere. And alot of companies like to exploit their employees. But not all are that way

Måned siden
TheCreepypro
TheCreepypro

I've said it once and I'll say it again just cause you have the moral high ground doesn't mean you have any moral fiber I only know jason by reputation and I heard parris on this show once but I feel like I really got to know who he was from that discussion so based on those things and what Nick said here I can't help but agree with him Jason could have done that better or phrased things better and not been a dick about it and when someone else brings it up don't be a dick about it again cause Parris absolutely had a right to critique that post Jason didn't need to rain on the developers parade not all crunch is equal maybe their crunch isn't at bad since at least they have laws there that protect them somewhat unlike in america always remember that even if you think you know everything count on there being something you don't I for one love and appreciated the discussion here and hope there are more like it in the future great job boys your bringing nuance and intelligence back to the internet one discussion at a time

Måned siden
Mighty Baloo
Mighty Baloo

That's why I left Twitter and Facebook. It seems to me that, at this point, it's only function is to stir up the mob and make them angry/afraid at anything and everything and weaponizing them to the beat of a half-baked (Or more often than not, blatantly false ) narrative. Jason's expose is important and the issue needs to be rectified by these companies. But being right doesn't seem to be good enough for him. What he did on twitter is no longer about bringing the issue to light, and fighting for worker's rights. It was a petty jab used to stoke the fires that fuel his own ego.

Måned siden
john wrath
john wrath

Jason Schreier has half of the entire game industry blocked. His reporting is great, i like what he is pushing for in the industry. He is also an insufferable twat.

Måned siden
Eyal Itsik
Eyal Itsik

Jack, I think you're one of the best hosts of everything ever.

Måned siden
Weathermanthey
Weathermanthey

This discussion was really well put and a breath of fresh air on the crunch/game dev/social media topic

Måned siden
untydled
untydled

I'm a huge leftist and workers rights advocate and I really appreciated this stuff being talked about the video game industry because I'm not very familiar with it. It's a shame that artists are so exploited by capitalism.

Måned siden
emergency induction port
emergency induction port

And in this case,they are,handsomely,10% of the profit made from sales will go to developers as a bonus,and the game will sell,it will sell good. What's infuriating is those same journalist don't make a big deal out off naughty dog for example,company that exploits it's workers making them work far,far more than 8 extra hours per week and without extra pay,that's crunch,you're not going to hear about that from the media,just because the game is "woke".

Måned siden
untydled
untydled

@emergency induction port all I care about is workers being paid for their work

Måned siden
emergency induction port
emergency induction port

What about construction workers? Teachers? Medical professionals? Vast majority of people do overtime from time to time,and Americans are the ones crying about it,because they don't get paid for it. So maybe try to change things in your own backyard first,because workers in EU at least,have nothing to complain about,doing 8 extra hours per week for 6 weeks for 50% more money seems like a good deal to me,and apparently majority of those workers don't mind it too.

Måned siden
krispwnsu
krispwnsu

Great discussion guys. You did bring up the exact reason people don't discuss this publicly. Retaliation. There are laws against it but there are plenty of loopholes that make proving fault in participating in retaliation practices difficult. We need more info but sadly that may mean more anonymous sources.

Måned siden
Marlon Rooks
Marlon Rooks

Over time sucks but most jobs have to deal with it from time to time. I have to work 70 to 80 hours a week pretty regularly. Sometimes you have to put in a little extra time to get stuff done. Do people want to have another push back of release? I'm willing to bet the answer is no

Måned siden
DigiTrailz
DigiTrailz

I always feel bad for the temps. Because they are the silent statistic, like you mentioned. I was at a company that had a crunch project, not game development, but it was tech related. And I had to come in sit, and just hammer code for half my day as fast as I could before the daily deadlines. Sometimes I missed lunch due to it. I see both sides of it, crunch can be needed for when a project is needed to get done. But I also hate when it's at the detriment of people, because that job broke me mentally.

Måned siden
Gabriel Smith
Gabriel Smith

I will forever be disappointed in Nick for not knowing the opening Blue Brothers quote.

Måned siden
accquizzer
accquizzer

Don't worry, Jack, I gotcha... "Hit it"

Måned siden
Garrick Lyng
Garrick Lyng

Free updoot for showing doggo

Måned siden
Night Cat
Night Cat

It's pretty simple really: overtime should always be paid and it should always be voluntary. It's never your job to do overtime; your working hours are the hours you were hired for, nothing more. Any extra you want to do on top of that needs to be up to you as the worker & you need to be compensated for putting in that extra time if you can/want to. If a company can't get the work done that it needs to do without forcing overtime (whether paid or not) then that company's management has fucked it up & it needs to be the management who are paying the price, not the workers.

Måned siden
Jennifer Fuss
Jennifer Fuss

I am totally with Jack on that. Bring it up, and raise it to the awareness to the management. Don't go after the devs, who are already suffering.

Måned siden
Gentle Torture
Gentle Torture

I remember when Jason made an article about Dragon's Crown. Two in fact about the female character designs in 2013. He blew things way out of proportion, and thusly the fans of the game responded in kind. It was weird to see it all from an outsider's perspective. Funny how things don't change years later. And yes, I've been reading Kotaku that long. I'm old. Don't remind me.

Måned siden
MountainRider7
MountainRider7

Can we get a GIF of the head-and-eye-roll starting at @9:54

Måned siden
kudakwashe matebvu
kudakwashe matebvu

Since you mentioned nuance. I think cause of crunch is missing from the discussion. It's very important to make distinction among understaffing, budget, covid,financial feasibility deadline etc and deal with each cause accordingly. Understaffing is absolute exploitation and financial feasibility deadline(best time to sell) is grey area depending on prior factors to the deadline. The mentality of Jason is that of the Reagan era. The if they fear jail they will change ideology and not acknowledging underlying causes of the problem. Giving the same response between bioware and cdred is a blanket indictment. No progress will be made and the problem will just disappear under more draconian NDAs

Måned siden
Simon Singh
Simon Singh

Just want to say I love how rounded and intelligent Nick’s views are, wanting to know the full story before forming an opinion rather than jumping straight on the virtue-signalling bandwagon, props to you my guy! :)

Måned siden
Hipólito Alanís
Hipólito Alanís

I agree with the argument that we don't have enough information to do a really informed opinion. Thanks Nick for being adamant on your perspective, it would have been too easy to just take a side and make revenue from that!

Måned siden
15awesomehighfive
15awesomehighfive

The discussion becomes a problem when it leads people to say they will pirate the game. C'mon! That's even worst. Buy it or don't, but don't pirate it, that's literally the worst thing you can do. Specially to a company that IS the best example of consumer friendliness.

Måned siden
15awesomehighfive
15awesomehighfive

@Joshua Bull yeah, it's simple. You don't want to support it? Don't buy it. But you have to be aware that everything we buy has some form of exploitation behind it. It's that sad.

Måned siden
Joshua Bull
Joshua Bull

there isn't even competition. its funny to me when people say they can't support this "excessive crunch," knowing full well that there really havent been any AAA games in the last decade made with absolutely no crunch time

Måned siden
15awesomehighfive
15awesomehighfive

Keep up these discussions guys, they are complex topics and it's nice to have nuanced exchanges over them, while making your positions clear.

Måned siden
joeofdoom
joeofdoom

Tbh it doesn't seem that bad however they did make a promise and to go back on it never looks good but these games now are so complicated I wouldn't expect anything else, moral of the story is don't make promises you can't keep.

Måned siden
Djepsi
Djepsi

Jason seems immature and incapable of dealing with people not agreeing with him. He only portrays one side of a story and if anyone questions him or is not agreeing Jason will block them lol

Måned siden
Pixel Trash
Pixel Trash

I work in the advertising industry - crunch is very real for us when it comes to product launches. Crunch exists in pretty much every creative industry when a deadline is involved. IMHO what makes or breaks the experience is the compensation - be it overtime pay, paid days off afterward, etc etc. I feel as though CD Projekt Red fumbled when they promised they wouldn't crunch. They should have just been more transparent and said "Hey we're gonna work 6 day weeks for a month or two, it sucks but we have to, but after that we're gonna take paid Fridays off for awhile - we deserve it." Crunch only leads to burn out when you feel like the company doesn't care about you, or doesn't value the time you gave up and won't give it back to you in some way.

Måned siden
Atomicus Aquinas
Atomicus Aquinas

Ya, no, going after someone by digging through their history like that, when you have followers, and then blocking them? not cool. Regardless of the intent of his tweet, it would have been easily diffused by saying, "Oh, I'm sorry, I didn't mean for that to sound like an agenda or snarky. I'm truly happy for the milestone, AND I'm rooting for them, because we know they're in crunch" easy peasy. how he handled it was inexcusable.

Måned siden
Tristan Davies
Tristan Davies

I don't quite understand the criticism around crunch, because if you work in any industry that remotely produces or manufactures something. It will happen. I can understand why it's disliked, but it's not at all centric to just the gaming industry. Owell

Måned siden
Joshua David
Joshua David

Jack camera stopped working segment reminded me of Tom goes to mayor.

Måned siden
funghazi
funghazi

I'm with Jack on this one. Bring up crunch, bring up the broken promises, nothing good will come without laying on some pressure.

Måned siden
BruisedJinx
BruisedJinx

omg that part about sequels with spelunky 2 where they say people will hate it then a couple years later they'll be like oh no i love it, i want more of it... I swear to people that is what happened with MGS3 and so many don't believe me. that game was so hated when it first came out and now it's like the pinnacle of the whole franchise. it's insane.

Måned siden
Nando
Nando

Nick, asking as sincerely as possible here, just trying to fully understand your view, totally with you that crunch is bad and should not happen, and that this is a nuanced topic. It almost sounds like you're saying that crunch has some upsides and is therefore justified. For example, you mentioned that someone you talked to said crunch brought the team together and made it stronger. I don't necessarily think you believe this, but I feel like it's leaving you open to people saying "oh so studios should crunch their devs because it strengthens the bonds?" Or "yeah they got crunched but it brought them together so it's okay!" I was just wondering if you could shed some light on that. While I get that crunch may have some positive side effects like that, I can't help but feel like crunch is the result of a failure on the management's behalf, especially for a studio as big as CDPR. There's been stories of people at BioWare having full on mental breakdowns and "stress-casualties" during the development of Mass Effect: Andromeda and Anthem. Like, how is something like that the result of anything other than shitty management?? Thoughts? Also, again, just trying to clarify, what sort of "agenda" was Paris saying that Jason was pushing? Fully agree that the whole situation was mishandled, and Jason should absolutely not have tried to brand Paris as a schill like that, but yeah I'm just not sure what Jason's agenda is supposed to be besides "crunch is bad."

Måned siden
Mirality
Mirality

All crunch is bad, but not all crunch is equally bad. Some kinds are worse than others. And the CDPR kind happens to be one of the milder ones. It's still bad, but there are a lot worse things that people should be complaining about instead.

Måned siden
Nando
Nando

@The Escapist That all makes sense, I appreciate the clarification! I'll go hunt down those tweets too! Also, fanboy-ing just a bit that I got a response from you/The Escapist =D

Måned siden
The Escapist
The Escapist

No, crunch doesn’t have upsides, people have just had different experiences with it is all I said, and that’s from literally being told stories about it from developers while doing documentaries and interviews. Our Darksiders documentary back on Gameumentary goes into their experience with it, and while they were crunching to get a demo done to show to publishers, that’s when the game finally “clicked” etc. There’s different circumstances under which a development team might crunch, and it’s not being apologetic towards it to talk about the different experiences devs have had with it. As for Jason’s agenda, I called that out as something Parris should not have said in the video. I won’t speak for him as to what he meant by it, but I think he’s explained it a few times on Twitter if you care to look it up. I appreciate you asking me to clarify instead of just telling me what I meant by that, thank you.

Måned siden
tanner1ie
tanner1ie

Go watch The Blues Brothers, Nick, you won't regret it :) .

Måned siden
Pandaboi
Pandaboi

It's important to recognise that there are different levels of crunch, in the Japanese anime industry people aspire to some day be able to sleep at least 4 hours per night. Lets start with the 100 hours per week crunch, not the 60 hours per week crunch.

Måned siden
Pandaboi
Pandaboi

@BlitzFireGaming I got the number wrong, it seems to peak at just 100 hours per week (still inhumane). It is Japan, overwork is the standard so that might have something to do with it. Still, 9 out of 10 animators quit the industry within the first 3 years. Most of the time these animators are paid less than a liveable wage because they're paid on commission instead of salary (also lets them get away with breaking labour laws). Kyoto Animation and Ghibli are famous in the industry for quality and for treating their workers well, but I can't find any numbers on working hours there.

Måned siden
Fenristripplex
Fenristripplex

Schreier is toxic as hell.

Måned siden
Jorae Reegers
Jorae Reegers

Another video showcasing how I'm definitely getting too old for this shit. Remember when it was just make the game, buy the game, have fun or hate it, then move on? Twitter is such a social cesspool where nobody has the best morality ever. It's just snark and trolling. It can honestly get worse than 4Chan at some points and I wish people would just chill the fuck out, AND ACTUALLY TALK ABOUT THIS like human freaking beings...WITH VOICES just like Nick and Jack.

Måned siden
Jason R
Jason R

If you don't care about platformers jump to 10:35 of the video

Måned siden
fakeaname
fakeaname

If only there were someone who worked in games journalism who could find out more 🤔

Måned siden
mrshmuga9
mrshmuga9

3:57 So Crash really IS the Dark Souls of Platforming!

Måned siden
Damian Abregba
Damian Abregba

Finally some sensible take on crunch and social media

Måned siden
Andrew Hickinbottom
Andrew Hickinbottom

5:08 got a big genu-LOL from me! Excellent :-D The health warning at 6:14 too - Omar's getting really good at adding extra humour through editing!

Måned siden
JombilyWobbily
JombilyWobbily

I don't come here for the drama. I come here for the editing!

Måned siden
ZenithArt07
ZenithArt07

When Nick mentions the mental health effects of toxic social media, I really hope he reaches out to Parris personally to see how he's been affected.

Måned siden
ZenithArt07
ZenithArt07

@The Escapist it's just reassuring that you care about the industry and Games Media in general, you and your team are some of the finest people working. Thank you for doing your best :)

Måned siden
The Escapist
The Escapist

Already did, we wanted to bring him on for this video but he wasn’t available.

Måned siden
FNL 4EVA
FNL 4EVA

I hate CDPR higher management and suits. CDPR was attacking others devs for crunch and there against mtx and they wont do others doing. CDPR statements attacking other devs doing what i said. Now they did a 360 on crunch and anti mtx. There doing both they attacked others doing it the only mp mtx defense is voided cause they said in general. So i will buy cyberpunk but only used cause i will not support them now.

Måned siden
Adam Jones
Adam Jones

1) This just isnt true. 2) Not buying the game directly affects developers as they split 10% of the direct profits from the game

Måned siden
Larry the Wanderer
Larry the Wanderer

Im 24 and I knew that was a Blues Brothers reference I can't believe nick didn't get that

Måned siden
ThousandairesClub
ThousandairesClub

THESE NEXT 40 DAYS ABOUT TO LONGGGG AF.

Måned siden
George Lomia
George Lomia

Honestly no complaining and yelling at developers will do anything. The ONLY reason why video game crunch is a big deal is that no one covers other industries, no one reports on crunch for the next piece of Google software. The only solution is legislation and unionization, pushing blame on individuals and singular companies while giving legislators a pass is self-indulging.

Måned siden
Nikita B
Nikita B

Honestly? Bugger off commie. People find meaning in different things and work can be one of them. Knowing that you have put more into the world than you have taken out of it on a given day, knowing you were a part of something good, knowing you have done a proper job and did not take sloppy shortcuts, knowing your ideas will make someone's life a little better down the line can be hugely satisfying. Sometimes that involves working some extra time. You don't find meaning in work - perfectly fine. But don't you dare to try to legislate MY freedom to find MY meaning.

Måned siden
ImBoredToo
ImBoredToo

Uncompensated overtime is bullshit and should not be tolerated under any circumstance. That devalues the labor market and cheats yourself out of hard earned money. Overtime can suck, but at least the CDPR crunch is compensated.

Måned siden
FNL 4EVA
FNL 4EVA

Bet crunching mp mtx content was the delay last time pulled people off sp to do mp. It comes later i bet to not hurt sales from mp mtx. I heard some info if true will piss many off when mp hits.

Måned siden
Teh Beej
Teh Beej

well i feel old. nick didn't get that Blues Brothers reference. i mean classic movie line!

Måned siden
Dragon50275
Dragon50275

Here's my take: Snark is ABSOLUTELY okay for getting the message out, so long as you are Responsible for the fact that you shoved it out there like that. If someone else doesn't like it, that doesn't mean you're the victim. Obviously some larger circumstantial context still applies (intonation, tone, how they respond to you), but generally you should apply the snark as respectfully as possible and NOT blow a tizzy-fit at anyone else respectfully calling out your respectful callout. Take responsibility for your actions and keep moving on, there's no reason to get mired down in controversy if you Know Better; And you most definitely should Know Better in a career in information-media / entertainment-media. Unfortunately Jason Schrier has aways seemed very...egotistical, perhaps too much to be the guy writing the articles. He's an excellent information-hound, but he most definitely doesn't promote a sense of Holism, so much as he promotes a sense of Warrior Justice. And yes, that is my opinion of how badly he's blown his top over the years, I take responsibility for that perspective.

Måned siden
VARIOUS two
VARIOUS two

Reading tone on the internet is hard. I probably would think Schreier was being snarky, but reading your tweet and Paris' I would assume both of you have a chip on your shoulder about him as well. Now this may not be the case, but it sounds like the sentiments in your tweet aren't in line with the reasoning you offer here, and just like you dismiss Schreier's claim that it wasn't meant to be snarky, I think he'll assume you're just trying to go after him for reasons outside of the tweet. I'm no fan of twitter, but the problem isn't in the platform, but rather in its users. Everyone reacts on a gut level, often drawing in emotions that aren't made explicit in their tweet and everyone reads other's tweets with that same baggage. I think you were both acting in the best of intentions, but assumed the other wasn't, so you both become the villains in each other's narratives. It takes two to tango, and as I see it you made the same mistakes he did, and it's a bit unfair to ask that he understands your motives behind your tweet while also denying him his claimed motives for his. Neither side is listening to the other, and that's what typifies the garbage interactions that define Twitter. If you tried to express the same thoughts in a private setting no doubt he would take them differently, in the same way you look at his tweet at Paris differently when it's divorced of context and done in public than you would if it were done in private.

Måned siden
Turn5ignal
Turn5ignal

Crunch is just a fact of working on a huge project and having a deadline. This is standard operation in almost every industry. You know most minimal wage working Americans were working at least 2 jobs to make it before COVID.

Måned siden
carentino
carentino

If crunch is needed then your planning was bad. Having the need for crunch shows that managment isn't doing their job.

Måned siden
MadeYouSayMyName
MadeYouSayMyName

Step 1: Set realistic, obtainable deadlines instead of overly optimistic deadlines. If your deadline includes crunch time, your deadline is not good. Step 2: once you have a realistic and good deadline, keep up with milestones with your employees and encourage them to meet those milestones to avoid crunch. "We need to have this in place by this date. If we don't for any foreseeable reason, we are the reason we will have crunch." I know plans can and will change, but if a plan needs to be changed, a deadline also needs to be able to change. I used to work in the games industry (QA testing as an actual employee, not some beta tester that wants to be included.) We were hourly so we were compensated for the 80 hour work weeks. I saw a lot of the salaried employees working just as long, if not longer, and their only compensation was a free meal. Crunch does not have to be a fact of working on a huge project and having a deadline. Unsafe working conditions used to be a fact of working on a hard job. Child labor used to be a fact of working. Just because this is the way it is currently doesn't mean it has to be the standard.

Måned siden
Dragon50275
Dragon50275

"It's not like it is, but it is what it is...is." Well...I suppose that depends on what your definition of is...is, then.

Måned siden
funghazi
funghazi

They don't think it be like it is, but it do

Måned siden
eaeaea fdfdfd
eaeaea fdfdfd

Great seeing Jack is still doing gaming things! We love you dude. best regards old pre-rec fan.

Måned siden
Yoko The Spacewhale
Yoko The Spacewhale

A michigander that doesn't know a Blue Brothers reference? That's like half the white population in Chicago at the moment. Can confirm.

Måned siden
Modie
Modie

What I also miss a bit in the whole situation is why crunch is happening in the first place. It's always labeled as "mismanagement", but that's such an easy scapegoat to make. There wouldn't be laws that allow overtime if it was just a mismanagement issue. I mean, I heard people say that they shouldn't set release dates and just ship it when it is ready. That is an interesting idea. But it is also very naive. Usually you don't just set a date because you feel like it, there are people investing in a certain product and they are willing to invest more or less. Not to mention that every day working on a project costs money. Companies need to set deadlines to have an overview of how much money they can make from this. And last but not least, deadlines are also important for the workers. I am sure everyone knows that a deadline helps you to actually work on something. Without a deadline you might be less willing to fully concentrate. So a deadline is even important to get it done beforehand. The second point is about developing a game to begin with. I am no game developer, but I have to work with a lot of code on a daily basis. And there will always be mistakes. And sometimes, finding and fixing these mistakes can take much longer than you would have ever imagined. All that time fixing these mistakes done by developers is additional time. Now, you can say that they should expect it and they do. But let me ask you another question: If someone makes a mistake that throws the release of the whole project back for several days, should that person be fired? Of course not, we all make mistakes. And the person should also not be paid less because of it. Everyone in the team will help fix this mistake, even if it wasn't theres to begin with. So why are we so hard on managers making mistakes? Because we never talk about the work day of these managers. There might be exceptions, but managers aren't just laying in their money all day. They work as well and they work overtime as well. Most of them don't even have a family, because they had to invest so much into getting this position to begin with that there was never a chance. So, if a manager makes a mistake in the release date (which btw is also not something that they just set for the fun of it, they are doing it through discussing with their developers), why is it now a bad thing, that the whole team tries to fix this mistake? Now, does this make crunch a good thing? No, of course not. If you can, you should make sure to avoid crunch at all costs. Though, we should already make sure that we differentiate between different crunches. CDPRs crunch is not the same as Rockstars for example. And I mean, there is even the question where crunch starts. Some suggest that 40hr work weeks are already too much for people, so under that baseline, we are all already crunching to begin with. The point is that we should talk more nuanced about the whole thing and not just say "crunch bad --> CDPR bad", because we are just reading headlines (like Jim Sterling seems to do).

Måned siden
godofdun
godofdun

I value the work of Jason S. but l recognize that he can be a messy bitch on social media lol

Måned siden
Alex Van Alstyne
Alex Van Alstyne

Love the Blues Brothers reference

Måned siden
Crispman 777
Crispman 777

Jason seems to get into this kind of hot water regularly

Måned siden
delusionnnnn
delusionnnnn

The problem with the "nuanced" discussion about crunch is that Nick has relationships with the industry and he wants to see the story from every angle at once. That's fine if you're not interested in taking a position on an issue, but if you actually believe that crunch is an issue that needs to be addressed, your "relationships" and "interviews" with game developers and executives need to be set aside, or else you're just writing games journalism for games journalists and game developers. Crunch happens in industries where consumers are insulated from the realities of the industries they give money to. The days when this stuff happened and we find out about it five years later is long, long gone. If something is a bad look, the era of knowing it won't come out until it doesn't matter is no longer a luxury. A lot of time, something is only considered "nuanced" if someone spends equal time parroting the justification of the status quo. Why is that necessary? That's what the game executives and the corporate entities spend their considerable time and money on. There's a lot of time in this video spent on making sure you can separate enthusiasm for a series with support for workers' rights. That separation hasn't worked because corporations only understand money. and enthusiasm is about hype. If you don't care about crunch when it's connected to a series you've enjoyed, you don't care about crunch. If you only care about the workers' right to strike if it doesn't affect you or doesn't cost you influence in the industry you cover, you don't care about workers' rights. "Nobody wants workers to crunch." You just don't want to be too inconvenienced by the arguments against it? Come on.

Måned siden
delusionnnnn
delusionnnnn

@Jack Lucas Sorry, most of what I get out of it is annoyance that anyone is more strident than he is (which is most people who even bring up the subject, to be fair), and that we should all somehow have a more civil conversation about it. For some people, this is a workers' rights issue where civil conversations have happened for decades and another few decades of "buy the product but have a heart-to-heart about the problem of crunch" is going to get us exactly where we are today. When the status quo is extreme, so is balance. We have entire political parties in most countries dedicated to the idea that unionization is undemocratic and against the interests of [insert nation here].

Måned siden
Jack Lucas
Jack Lucas

delusionnnnn c’mon man nick obviously took the time to think about this and presented a balanced point of view from a position of expertise. Exploring all sides of an issue is what makes him a good journalist, he’s not towing the line or anything. No need to go after him like that in the comments like you can disagree with his opinion and that’s okay, but assuming his intentions and calling him out ain’t it

Måned siden
The Escapist
The Escapist

​@delusionnnnn I don't have a both sides on crunch. I literally just want more of the story to come about the studio, because Jason brought up the people had been crunching for a year again. I want to know if the culture is in fact improving there and if it's true that people have been crunching for a year. That's all there is to it. I literally started the video saying the only way to think about crunch is that it's bad. I don't know how much more explicit you want me to be on that matter. And when I say I want a "nuanced" discussion it, it's because I don't give a damn about snarky tweets from people that don't do anything but add more noise to the conversation. I want to see discussions that result in solutions, not people stroking their ego with the latest "hot take" on a situation. And then from those stupid hot takes, people take it and run with it and make developers afraid of speaking out for fear of repercussions from not only their job, but from the online community at large. This is something I have literally witnessed myself, and why I take the way we treat these conversations on social media so seriously. - Nick

Måned siden
delusionnnnn
delusionnnnn

@The Escapist I'm sorry you feel this way, I just don't know who your audience is for that part of the video. It just seems to me that you have this both-sides, middle-of-the-road opinion where the worst outcome of fighting crunch is the risk of losing a series you were looking forward to, or more to the point, of alienating someone you have sympathy for. I get that, particularly the latter. But a lot of these employees who aren't willing to fight crunch aren't able to (or find it pointless to) because much of the industry works that way, or because of the risk to themselves if they are identified, or because they have taken this on as normal. It's OK to start shutting down the entire idea of crunch as, at best, bad management, or at worst, a moral failing if it's happening so regularly at a particular company that it's clearly just "how business is done". If something is an abusive treatment of workers, maybe saying so is the best way forward, and something other than praising a "more nuanced discussion" is called for. It doesn't mean online harassment of individuals, but criticizing corporate behaviour while purchasing their products hasn't worked so far. Why would it start?

Måned siden
The Escapist
The Escapist

I don't know where it's coming off that I don't think crunch is an issue that needs to be addressed, but that's not true. I brought up my past work because I've spent years and years talking to devs, telling their stories and trying to humanize them literally so people would be more empathetic to just how hard game development really is. That's a stance I've explicitly taken, and I've often shied away from trying to do docs and stuff on AAA games because it's so tightly controlled by PR I don't think I can get a legitimate story out of it. I didn't justify crunch one bit in here, I just want actual conversations to happen about these things that don't dissolve into social media drama that becomes more about the people fighting about crunch, than actually finding solutions to crunch itself. Edit: Wow, another one that really put a lot of words in my mouth again. "If you only care about the workers' right to strike if it doesn't affect you or doesn't cost you influence in the industry you cover, you don't care about workers' rights." "You just don't want to be too inconvenienced by the arguments against it?" How you came away with that is beyond me. The point was specifically that nobody wants workers to suffer for their entertainment, but nobody really has a solution to solve it because consumers won't actually stop buying the games that support it. Made it pretty clear there you're not commenting in good faith on this by telling me what I think on this. - Nick

Måned siden
chewface
chewface

The problem isn't crunch. The problem is gossip. Games journalists nowadays always seem to know a guy who knows a guy who might have Tweeted about a guy who maybe works for CDPR...and there was, allegedly, "toxic" stuff happening there. Do some deeper digging...and maybe some team lead guy asked a girl out to lunch, and everyone else interpreted that as se+ual har@ssment. Let the media take it from there. Remember back when we had no idea what happened during game development? We just played the games? Now we cling to every desperate detail that can be spun politically.

Måned siden
chewface
chewface

@PowerZordan what

Måned siden
PowerZordan
PowerZordan

@chewface You haven't read what I answered, have you ? Ps: you hugely overestimate what a developer is in the video game industry They are pretty much just educated factory workers, not much more "Worked for CD Projekt Red 2015-2020" won't get them more money in the long run, they'll just be sure they'll find jobs, so we just end up back to my question

Måned siden
chewface
chewface

@PowerZordan Bruh. Nobody is forcing them to work for these companies. They are willing to put up with crappy hours and toxic environments as long as they can say on their resume "Worked for CD Projekt Red 2015-2020". They know the contracts they are signing. They literally get a copy of the contract. They should also be intelligent enough to know what NDA's entail. It's hard to sympathize with people who sign contracts that make the expectations quite clear. It's a risk. Like many jobs. Like life.

Måned siden
PowerZordan
PowerZordan

@chewface Here's your choices: 1) you accept our terms 2) you might not have enough money to feed your family if we fire you Do you call that "choices" ? If you take 1), do you really "choose" 1) ?

Måned siden
chewface
chewface

@PowerZordan If they are signing NDA's, or signing contracts that clearly spell out that hours have the potential to suck and they can be let go for any reason...and they still choose to work for big game companies because it will boost their career even if it hurts their soul.....it's hard to sympathize. Just saying.

Måned siden
Pahlavan Habib
Pahlavan Habib

It's actually pronounced, "CD Pro-yekt."

Måned siden
Jimmyc
Jimmyc

For what its worth i do know that games developer Unions are becoming more of a talking point, and I believe there is 1 in the UK already - I dont have a link, and cant remember the name. But its becoming more and more of an issue in the industry, and i feel like its only a matter of time before the industry goes into a more widespread unionisation.

Måned siden
bird3713
bird3713

I agreed with Jack’s perspective here.

Måned siden
Steven Thomas
Steven Thomas

I love this podcast/show. Crunch is quite an interesting topic in many professions. It's almost unavoidable in any job that has deadlines, from game design, to releasing a new car, to accounting, etc. Does the discussion need to go wider and include modern day working expectations?

Måned siden
Steven Thomas
Steven Thomas

@Pearce Hayward I would argue that's more of a discussion to be had about fixed-term contracts rather than whether the overtime is compulsory or not. Someone on a permanent contract should be able to refuse the overtime if it's not compulsory, but I can see the predicament for those who aren't. I also don't really see the relevance of the coworkers flirting and banter that you mentioned.

Måned siden
Pearce Hayward
Pearce Hayward

​@Steven Thomas eh not mandatory is a bit of a fuzzy thing when it comes to employment. There is a sort of inescapable power dynamic at play between employer and employee and to a degree we already acknowledge this in the sexual harassment, and workplace bullying policies that most companies have. co-workers can flirt but managers can't hit on their employees for a very basic reason of a power imbalance that clouds any determination of consent. co-workers can have banter but managers can't really take the piss out of their staff in the morning meeting cause there is a power imbalance that can silence them defending themselves and an idle joke can be viewed as an implied threat against employment or conditions. Accepting that there is a power imbalance it's thus hard to argue that there is a free consent or that its not mandatory. Epic games insists that its crunch is 'not mandatory' but no one who refuses to participate gets their contact renewed so the others figure out what not mandatory really means in that context.

Måned siden
Steven Thomas
Steven Thomas

@Pearce Hayward I guess crunch can be ok if its managed well. If the overtime / extra work is not mandatory, and it is paid at your normal working rate (or possibly higher, or you're able to take the time off in lieu), and your employer is genuinely thankful for the extra work you put in and does right by you, then I'm not sure it is such a bad thing? I should add, I'm in the UK and I think we already have slightly better workers rights than in America, thinking about maternity leave and minimum holidays.

Måned siden
Pearce Hayward
Pearce Hayward

You can but after accepting crunch is not good because it provides lower productivity and a worse work life balance for staff you then have to face into what you will actually do about the problem which is where the discussion stalls out, in America at least.

Måned siden
Joseph Rabb
Joseph Rabb

As someone who’s worked under crunch, it comes down to bad project management. Crunch comes from the difficulty of everything having to come together all at once. It’s very messy. The problem is game development is mature enough now that this problem should be solved. It is also my experience that it in its worse forms it comes down to a manager that promises the world that they can “motivate” their team to get it done faster than the last guy. The fact it’s 6 days for six weeks tells me they screwed up the time tables but not as bad as some managers I’ve worked for. That schedule feels like they were genuinely trying to avoid crunch but underestimated the difficulty of pulling so much together that has to happen at the end of any project. I think this is where the agile management style that’s prevalent in software development fails, which favors reactivity over meticulously crafted plans. Crunch is absolutely a reactive process. For what it’s worth, my line of work involves launching manufacturing lines. Unfortunately it seems that employees of game developers are in a position where they lack the bargaining power my profession has.

Måned siden
Night Cat
Night Cat

@Joseph Rabb Yea that's the issue; getting management to budget for a potentially longer time than is necessary. One would think that occasionally coming in under budget (for time or money) would be a good thing, but nah.

Måned siden
Joseph Rabb
Joseph Rabb

Night Cat totally understand the software side of it. The reactive management naturally arises from this but you can paint yourself into a corner quickly if you don’t work off a timeline. I’ve spent most of my career debugging automation programming. My only rebuttal is that you know for a fact that’s coming and it’s something you factor into your time tables. It’s not just a software thing either. Mechanical, chemical, civil, and computer hardware...any engineer has the same set of unknown unknowns waiting like a tiger trap to fall into. Explaining this to management that thinks your sandbagging your time table is another story.

Måned siden
Night Cat
Night Cat

It's unfortunately not so simple in development. Debugging is a process that cannot be quantified. Bugs take an unknown amount of time to find & pin down to replication, and then they take an unknown amount of time to actually fix, & then those fixes can always introduce unforeseen new bugs because software is all just dominoes. You cannot plan for something if you have no idea how difficult or time consuming it's going to be. That's not to say I'm in any way okay with games being released that are shoddy & full of bugs or in favour of crunch; it's just that you can't really put any timeframe on that part of the development. What studios should be doing is (at least) doubling their budgeted timeframe for debugging & QA from the outset, & then releasing earlier if they get through it sooner, but that would get in the way of the marketing timeline (which is meticulously crafted & has far too much sway over actual development). And, ya know, unions.

Måned siden
Brock English
Brock English

There is no ethical consumption under capitalism. Someone somewhere will always be getting screwed over. The degree to which they are screwed over can vary but it's true regardless. You can choose where to draw the line if you'd like but until there is a fundamental change in the way society operates its inevitable.

Måned siden
Ronnie Jones
Ronnie Jones

Cooookkkkiiiee!!!!!

Måned siden
Hamdi Gül
Hamdi Gül

I think one big problem with nuance surrounding this situation is that there are like a handful of people (with big platforms) talking about these issues I bet Jason Schreier wants the industry to be better but if you put people in position of power like that they will fuck up if they are not challenged If MORE journalists and MORE Devs were willing to be open about shit like that then nuance wouldn't really be an issue because a lot more people would be on equal terms Also if you are going to shit on people cause of crunch focus on the bosses not the workers

Måned siden
Anthony Yates
Anthony Yates

Quick thing look at the original article they never promised no crunch

Måned siden
MysticTruhan
MysticTruhan

Jack is in two videos in my sub box in 24 hours. What is this hack fraud doing to me and why is it working.

Måned siden
Abyssalhub
Abyssalhub

Jake and Elwood give their respect

Måned siden
superbit415
superbit415

I would argue that what's happening in CD Project Red is not crunch but Overtime. Which is a completely legitimate thing. I think people are using crunch and overtime as synonyms now which is not remotely correct.

Måned siden
CetreMystic
CetreMystic

The country cyberpunk is made in has great worker protections and the devs get bonuses if the game does well........ its not unpaid crunchtime if you dont buy the game because they "had crunch" your hurting the employees that went through the crunch....

Måned siden
Java Monsoon
Java Monsoon

Yeah, applying american standards to EU businesses just doesn't work. The employees in CDPR might not be unionized, but the EU-laws regarding work, work-safety, compensation, extra/hollidays/danger/triple-crew/full-continuity are set in stone. Unions do exist, but are more effective in the yearly salary-adjustments negiotiations and lay-off protection packages. It's also intentional that bringing your employer before court has a low bar to meet and have a high success-rate for the sueing party.

Måned siden
svsguru2000
svsguru2000

Playing Squadrons in VR surprised me, because every other game with smooth locomotion made me horribly sick within seconds. For some reason, not in this game.

Måned siden
Mirality
Mirality

You're in a ship, so you have the cockpit surroundings and a targeting reticule that don't move around in your field of vision. That makes a massive difference to your brain.

Måned siden
Shiknobi
Shiknobi

Discussing complicated topics with an open mind is something I'll always want to be preached about, keep on preaching Nick, but not to the extent of deteriorating your mental health. Calling on bullshit is important as well, even in the face of pushbacks, stay strong

Måned siden
The Escapist
The Escapist

@Shiknobi Heh, doin exactly that tonight. No game night for me, just sleep.

Måned siden
Shiknobi
Shiknobi

@The Escapist I guess some people are more accustomed to the toxins of social media, don't drown yourself mate, recharge that battery

Måned siden
The Escapist
The Escapist

This is the most time I've ever spent on social media since I started using it and I'm exhausted already. I don't know how people live their lives on this stuff.

Måned siden
stefan kullenberg
stefan kullenberg

Why are they talking about gamemedia as if they aint part of it?

Måned siden
tbirch42
tbirch42

This is my gaming news network now after this conversation

Måned siden
Enrico Marelli
Enrico Marelli

I'm more and more fond of you two, my men. Keep up the good work.

Måned siden
Deathven
Deathven

Crunch isn’t great. And in many cases people arent treated well. However it’s something that exists in not only game development but also the entire tech industry. In this case, CD Project Reds treatment of workers (partially thanks to Poland work laws) are treated really well in comparison to a lot of people in the US... idk why people are “blowing up” about this and not what’s going on in their own home country.

Måned siden
Logos Rising
Logos Rising

Taking presents from game developers does destroy your objectivity and does more often than not make you a shill for them. hint: that's why they budget to give you 'free' stuff while abusing employment law to shirk paying employees overtime. Its not because they're just really really nice people because you are so cool.

Måned siden
anchuto
anchuto

No one likes to work overtime, however we need to try to understand the context. We are 1 month before a release they’ve been working on for the past 10 years. Throughout all that time, CDPR has always been very good to their employees, but if they want to release a polished product, a bit of overtime is almost inevitable. This happens in every industry with deadlines, not just gaming. And to be fair, 48 hours a week can barely be called crunch in my opinion. I always have to crunch a couple of months every year, and it’s 60 hours a week. I don’t like it, but it allows us to finish our work, and I also get a lot of overtime money in the process. In the end, it’s good for all of us.

Måned siden
Pearce Hayward
Pearce Hayward

@emergency induction port not quite you said that's life not that it was just present circumstances or a changeable problem you accepted that being pressured into overtime at the threat of losing your job is a universal condition of life and there is only one alternative to life. So either what you said was nonsense or you genuinely believe that exploitation and coercion is the best thing that anyone can ever expect for the rest of time and that asking for better is futile.

Måned siden
emergency induction port
emergency induction port

@Pearce Hayward since when changing a job is equivalent to death? I see you love to overdramatize everything. Almost every industry has crunch,and yes it's bad it should not exist,but in this case we are talking about overtime,lawful overtime with generous pay rise,that's not crunch,working 14 hours a day is a crunch and I've experienced it,hated id and changed jobs.

Måned siden
anchuto
anchuto

Like I said before, yes crunch is integral to the gaming industry like it is in any industry with deadlines, but that’s not necessarily a bad thing. Take my case for example, I absolutely hate it when I have to crunch, so why do I stay in this job? Because I believe that it is necessary, and because eventho I hate all the stress it causes me, when it’s finally over I’m happy that I have a lot of extra money to buy whatever I want. My point is that crunch doesn’t just benefit the corporate overlords. In the end it benefits everyone, the bosses, the employees and of course, the customers. Sure, it has some bad things that no one like (trust me, bosses don’t like having to pay overtime either), but the only reason why it exists is because in the end it’s beneficial to everyone.

Måned siden
Pearce Hayward
Pearce Hayward

@emergency induction port ahhh so crunch is integral to games development and no one should ever ask for nor expect anything better because the only alternative is death?

Måned siden
emergency induction port
emergency induction port

@Pearce Hayward well,that's life. If one doesn't want to work overtime from time to time then should get a job in different industry. It sucks,no one likes overtime but no one likes paying taxes either,or being stuck in traffic.

Måned siden
McNally
McNally

I disagree with how Nick sees this, people inside a situation do not always have a superior view as to what is going on. I have worked in many toxic places where long workdays/weeks are treated like the norm. In fact I just quit from one. Financially I am fine. Health-wise this was a good decision. Work literately broke me and they still expected me to show up daily. Mentally though, I still feel terrible for leaving. Management manged to make me feel like I was a failure on the way out. They probably did not care about me at all but they used it as a chance to galvanize everyone else into working harder and make them feel better about sticking it out. Reminding them money that would be wasted on me now goes to their overtime. I left because things were bad and not going to get better. They made me leaving seem like a boon to everyone else. Reminding employees extended crunch is not necessary, not normal, and not efficient is important. Many people in management are all too happy to spin a lack of resources and employees as a benefit for "the happy few". It is useful to remind employees that money is no good if you are not allowed to live. Questioning administration/management is completely fair when they behave incompetently. It may not be the hourly employee's fault for mistakes. It may be shit rolling down hill.

Måned siden
The Escapist
The Escapist

@McNally To clarify the last two points that you disagreed with: 1. People can say whatever they want, I just think people with platforms need to make sure they're are putting our accurate information and not misrepresenting things. This point was made all the more clearer this weekend with how Jason handled the GI podcast, removed all context, and painted the reporter as trying to discredit him, when all she did was add more to the story through her own sources. That's what I mean when I say moderate thing. 2.I have no problem with people letting developers know they don't like how their workplace is treating them. But, I did not think with Jason's original story that we had enough information yet and people were jumping the gun on the situation, to which developers were being harassed, and as GI pointed out, were afraid to even be excited about their own work and I don't like to see that. That's just my personal opinion on it, and it's fine if people disagree with that. I'm biased as I've been in many studios talking to developers personally about this stuff and I know how they handled it, so I'm just coming from an empathetic point of view on their behalf. Anyways, I appreciate the convo on it and that you're supporting us via The Escapist +. Always willing to defend and discuss my points long as I don't have people attacking me and calling me a shill haha. - Nick

Måned siden
McNally
McNally

@The Escapist I guess it was a bit unfair of my to say "I disagree" without saying what part of your conversation I disagree with. Especially because part of your conversation was how conversations are split into sound bites to make people seem like villains. From what seemed to me to be said by Nick (you I guess), I agree: Personal attacks are bad when not directly related to the subject, simply used to distract and not build a case. More information is better. Snark is not always the best way to handle a serious subject. I Disagree: People are the best advocates for themselves. People not directly involved should moderate what they say. Repeatedly telling a person their workplace is harmful to them is harmful to their mental health and should be avoided. I gave an example of how management has directly colored my understanding of reality and it sucks. That is their job but I am still messed up. Management can make you think that your entire life revolves around them and your job. This is not true, you can get a new Job. I know I am being biased right now because I know not all management tries to make you feel trapped but some do. The place I just got out of used me to reinforce the idea that the outside world is terrifying, I was a bad person, and I deserved to be cast out. Those that stayed were fortunate that they were "good enough" to work a shitty job that pays well as it drains their life. Anyway, I think that it is important for people to hear other ideas on how their work should be run. Sometimes those ideas are bad and should be rejected but sometimes new workflow ideas, even from different industries, and improve employee moral and company success. I also want to make it clear I don't think you should stop talking. I think you are right that conversation is important and I support it. Literately. I just got escapist + again. I have not had since since about after Extra Credits joined and then I stopped when around when Sterling joined. tl'dr: I think a torrent of hate messes with anyone but I think if someone wants to question the office around them it could lead to creating a more successful work environment or the realization that they are not a good fit and that is ok. I did enjoy watching the conversation. Any hostility you sense from my writing is because I am currently hostile to other people.

Måned siden
The Escapist
The Escapist

I didn’t say anyone’s view was superior. All I said is I wanted to hear how devs feel about the situation as well. Not an either or situation. I just wanted to hear from the developers themselves as well about how they’re feeling, and to help confirm or deny the different stories coming out because all we have right now is A) statement from management and emails from management and B) statements from anom sources through a third party.

Måned siden
pizzarune5
pizzarune5

Hey Nick, any chance of getting Parris back on? Or any other special guests? Love the podcast, keep it up!

Måned siden
The Escapist
The Escapist

Yea, we've been talking to bring him back on. We wanna bring on other guests too, just hard to plan around with new consoles around the corner, end of year content and our showcase coming up.

Måned siden
Witcher Gregory
Witcher Gregory

I heard that cdpr devs voted FOR the crunch because they care and are being compensated accordingly.

Måned siden
Joshua Bull
Joshua Bull

ive heard nothing on voting, but 10% of CDPR's annual earnings are always split among the employees as a bonus, on top of being paid better than most devs. I fail to see why people are making a huge issue of 6 weeks at 48 hours, as that really just isn't much. Ive worked more hours at manual labor jobs

Måned siden
Chris H
Chris H

Mike N is that the point of reporting? Finding if the claims are real or not. The entire point of the talking heads from the video is that the developers were not given a chance to tell their side of the story.

Måned siden
Mike N
Mike N

@Chris H This is unverified, that's why it's not heavily reported

Måned siden
TulilaSalome
TulilaSalome

I don't know if anything gets done without some crunching - like the last week's of a building site get sort of hectic. If it isn't excessive, and you get compensated, then it's not that bad.

Måned siden
Baltasarmk
Baltasarmk

Hey Withcer, that bald guy is a guy from Red Letter Media

Måned siden

Neste

Every Zero Punctuation 2009

3:37:15

Every Zero Punctuation 2009

The Escapist

Ganger 876 k

Arsenal vs Wolves | Watch Along Live

2:31:05

The Art of Code - Dylan Beattie

1:00:49

The Art of Code - Dylan Beattie

NDC Conferences

Ganger 1,1 mill

Cyberpunk 2077 Night City Wire Event Reaction

2:43:16

Limbo of the Lost: The Greatest Bad Game

42:14

Limbo of the Lost: The Greatest Bad Game

MandaloreGaming

Ganger 2,1 mill

Apple Destroyed my Expectations.

20:25

Apple Destroyed my Expectations.

Linus Tech Tips

Ganger 1,3 mill

BPM: Bullets Per Minute (Zero Punctuation)

05:42

Arsenal vs Wolves | Watch Along Live

2:31:05

Apple Destroyed my Expectations.

20:25

Apple Destroyed my Expectations.

Linus Tech Tips

Ganger 795 k

Cyberpunk 2077 - Official Gameplay Trailer

5:14

Cyberpunk 2077 - Official Gameplay Trailer

Cyberpunk 2077

Ganger 26 mill

Minecraft, But You Can't Touch The Floor...

25:39

Minecraft, But You Can't Touch The Floor...

GeorgeNotFound

Ganger 3,7 mill